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  • Originally posted by Donnie D View Post
    Hockey has a salary cap. Baseball doesn't. The NHL shares national broadcast revenue, MLB is mainly local broadcast revenue.

    There are 2 categories of teams in baseball. Rich, big market teams and small market teams. The small market teams can compete if all the stars align perfectly while the big market teams have to fuck up big time not to compete. MLB and the broadcasters don't care because the big market teams have the big ratings. No one is going to spend the money necessary to make the Rays a consistent winner because to do so would mean losing $50 million a year. And no one in their right mind is going to build a sports stadium without a huge input of public money. Stadiums don't make money - if they did someone would build them.

    I don't blame Sternberg at all. He's playing the cards he's dealt. Blame the MLB economic model.

    It's why I don't really follow the Rays.
    The NBA model would benefit the Rays. Socialism.

    I’m a senior. As are Donnie, Puckhead, and JB.

    Who knew?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Donnie D View Post
      Hockey has a salary cap. Baseball doesn't. The NHL shares national broadcast revenue, MLB is mainly local broadcast revenue.

      There are 2 categories of teams in baseball. Rich, big market teams and small market teams. The small market teams can compete if all the stars align perfectly while the big market teams have to fuck up big time not to compete. MLB and the broadcasters don't care because the big market teams have the big ratings. No one is going to spend the money necessary to make the Rays a consistent winner because to do so would mean losing $50 million a year. And no one in their right mind is going to build a sports stadium without a huge input of public money. Stadiums don't make money - if they did someone would build them.

      I don't blame Sternberg at all. He's playing the cards he's dealt. Blame the MLB economic model.

      It's why I don't really follow the Rays.
      LOL, we aren't a small market team. Our salary last year was 28-40 million(depending on where you look), there were 17 players in the major leagues who were paid more than our entire 26 man squad. Small market teams, after a WS appearance, don't have to dump two of their few recognizable players who are on fair/below market contracts just to grind even further into a rock bottom payroll. We are a no market team(despite having some great t.v. ratings).

      It's fine to start off a little further behind. The Rays are a mile behind, with their hands tied behind their backs, strapped to leg cuffs, and have been set on fire.

      Sorry, but you're naive to not blame Sternberg. He is responsible for the teams financial predicament. Contextually, he bought the team back in 2004, pre-financial crisis when teams were getting hooked up with stadiums left and right. He was able gain controlling ownership thanks to a huge discount and by pulling in investors bouyed by the prospects of getting a stadium built and flipping the Rays for a huge profit, or at least being able to up their net wealth via a stake in the team. He put up a small spurt of commitment into them in the hopes of driving interest toward the Rays and it was lining up for him with a WS appearance around the corner, but his plan failed thanks to the financial crisis of 2008. Ever since then, his M.O. has changed. With bare bones operating costs, he can make a profit. As a billionaire, I will absolutely hold it against him that he was entirely non-commital towards a long term commitment with the team and the community and instead decided to milk the franchise for profit.
      If no government system will guarantee a utopia, then our best choice is to look for the least exploitive one

      Comment


      • He’s also bad-mouthed Tampa Bay residents from the get go. I’m not saying it’s sincere. I think it’s just posturing to get what he wants. But he comes off as a spoiled brat crying poor every damn time he opens his mouth. It’s all a game to him. Sure, he likes/loves baseball, but the game is bottom-line only about money and getting everyone else to give as much to him as possible for the privilege of hosting HIS team. Can’t you see how opposite that approach is to Vinik’s?
        “Could I had posted cite a site?” — WWW dot Trump makes you dumb dot RU

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Bolthed View Post
          He’s also bad-mouthed Tampa Bay residents from the get go. I’m not saying it’s sincere. I think it’s just posturing to get what he wants. But he comes off as a spoiled brat crying poor every damn time he opens his mouth. It’s all a game to him. Sure, he likes/loves baseball, but the game is bottom-line only about money and getting everyone else to give as much to him as possible for the privilege of hosting HIS team. Can’t you see how opposite that approach is to Vinik’s?
          So what you're saying is that Sternberg whining to the local press how the Rays making the World Series lost him more money wasn't the best way to attract fan support?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Derek28 View Post

            So what you're saying is that Sternberg whining to the local press how the Rays making the World Series lost him more money wasn't the best way to attract fan support?
            That sounds about right. He needs to take a tip from the Glazers and STFU.

            I’m a senior. As are Donnie, Puckhead, and JB.

            Who knew?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by RSchmitz View Post

              LOL, we aren't a small market team. Our salary last year was 28-40 million(depending on where you look), there were 17 players in the major leagues who were paid more than our entire 26 man squad. Small market teams, after a WS appearance, don't have to dump two of their few recognizable players who are on fair/below market contracts just to grind even further into a rock bottom payroll. We are a no market team(despite having some great t.v. ratings).

              It's fine to start off a little further behind. The Rays are a mile behind, with their hands tied behind their backs, strapped to leg cuffs, and have been set on fire.

              Sorry, but you're naive to not blame Sternberg. He is responsible for the teams financial predicament. Contextually, he bought the team back in 2004, pre-financial crisis when teams were getting hooked up with stadiums left and right. He was able gain controlling ownership thanks to a huge discount and by pulling in investors bouyed by the prospects of getting a stadium built and flipping the Rays for a huge profit, or at least being able to up their net wealth via a stake in the team. He put up a small spurt of commitment into them in the hopes of driving interest toward the Rays and it was lining up for him with a WS appearance around the corner, but his plan failed thanks to the financial crisis of 2008. Ever since then, his M.O. has changed. With bare bones operating costs, he can make a profit. As a billionaire, I will absolutely hold it against him that he was entirely non-commital towards a long term commitment with the team and the community and instead decided to milk the franchise for profit.
              Miami did it twice after winning a World Series. Then there was Kansas City who won and watched the large market teams poach their players. It happens to every small market team (which Tampa is). Small market teams are nothing more than a farm team for the larger markets.

              Hate to tell you but investors generally get into business to make money. If this team loses, fans don't attend games. But even when the team wins, fans don't attend games. You can blame the Trop all you want, but Yankee, Red Sox and Cubs fans seem to be able to find the Trop and attend games.

              This is a lousy sports town. People continue to follow their teams from up north. They do it in football, baseball and hockey. Hell, we were in the Stanley Cup finals and there were 3 Black Hawk fans for every Lightning fan.
              Last edited by Donnie D; 12-30-2020, 10:40 PM.
              “Every man who has stepped foot on the moon launched from the Kennedy Space Center, in Florida. Yet, Florida has failed to figure out how to run an election properly — a task simpler than rocket science.”

              Comment


              • I think you’re being obtuse. I’m telling you I am a paying fan and I have young kids who most likely will be fans in a matter of a few years. The franchise is 22 years old. That’s not enough time to make deep generational connections and it’s fucking stupid to compare us to fans of teams that have existed for more than 100 years.

                Yes, this can be a lousy sports town. But it’s because this region is lousy with middle-income, lower-IQ transplant assholes who think it’s fun to fight their neighbors over the shitty northern sports team allegiances they won’t give up no matter how long they live here.

                Bottom line - the Lightning are proof that this CAN be a good if not great sports town. We just need good, committed ownership that cares about cultivating a consistently entertaining product.

                You keep saying rich people have a right to their money (and ours?) and ignoring the example of Vinik. That’s intentionally obtuse. They can make great money while serving the community with a world-class operation.

                The Rays are amazing at doing more with less, but as a fan lemme tell you ... they are an anti-fan organization. Think about that. There’s apathy toward fans, but then they take it to an unheard of level where they actually antagonize their fans. It’s extortion: Give me a stadium or I’ll have to trade everyone you love! Great way to run a business.
                “Could I had posted cite a site?” — WWW dot Trump makes you dumb dot RU

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Donnie D View Post

                  Miami did it twice after winning a World Series. Then there was Kansas City who won and watched the large market teams poach their players. It happens to every small market team (which Tampa is). Small market teams are nothing more than a farm team for the larger markets.

                  Hate to tell you but investors generally get into business to make money. If this team loses, fans don't attend games. But even when the team wins, fans don't attend games. You can blame the Trop all you want, but Yankee, Red Sox and Cubs fans seem to be able to find the Trop and attend games.

                  This is a lousy sports town. People continue to follow their teams from up north. They do it in football, baseball and hockey. Hell, we were in the Stanley Cup finals and there were 3 Black Hawk fans for every Lightning fan.
                  I get how small market teams operate. We aren't, even small market teams can retain some of their stars and aren't driven entirely by arbitration and team control for every player. Add some context to your KC and Miami comparisons and it paints an entirely different picture. The 97 Marlins had one of the highest payrolls in baseball thanks to free agent shopping in an effort to win and sell the team, them dumping all of their players afterwards was a result of that. The 2003 team and KC did not dismantle the year after going to the WS. They bled those players, slowly over time, and when they weren't having success on the field. Those owners appreciated the fact that their teams were in a WS window and it was a good opportunity to bring more fans into the fold and reward those already loyal. They didn't jettison two aces from their roster and shop around the few remaining players who were paid anything resembling a reasonable salary.

                  That's the problem. Sternberg has not fulfilled his obligation as an owner by providing a long term outlook to the fans. The Montreal threat shattered all confidence in that, and watching the team play it's impossible to escape the feeling that this is all a business transaction. How do you expect to build a fanbase doing that? Sure, he can continue to milk the team and make a profit, but there is no way he deserves support from fans for doing so. He should sell the team to someone willing to commit to this area with $$ because they believe in it's future, but I'm sure he's content in being the Melnyk of MLB and waiting to be gifted a stadium.
                  If no government system will guarantee a utopia, then our best choice is to look for the least exploitive one

                  Comment


                  • The Rays desperately need a stadium, but at this point I'd almost rather the team left to Montreal than give it to Sternberg just for him to flip the team at a profit.
                    If no government system will guarantee a utopia, then our best choice is to look for the least exploitive one

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Donnie D View Post
                      This is a lousy sports town. People continue to follow their teams from up north. They do it in football, baseball and hockey.
                      I continue to follow my teams from Tampa. Should I stop doing that? I don’t make fun of people rooting for Dallas teams (not to their faces anyway) and I’m not going to tell my kids they have to support Daddy’s favorite teams when they never lived there. That’s where I think the line should be drawn and too many people go way over it.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by TexasBolt View Post

                        I continue to follow my teams from Tampa. Should I stop doing that? I don’t make fun of people rooting for Dallas teams (not to their faces anyway) and I’m not going to tell my kids they have to support Daddy’s favorite teams when they never lived there. That’s where I think the line should be drawn and too many people go way over it.
                        I’m not going to tell you what to do.

                        But I don’t get it. I grew up in Chicago, but I now live here. I want to be a part of the community where I live. That includes voting, volunteering and supporting local businesses and sports teams. Why would I still follow a team from a community that I chose to leave? Why wouldn’t I want my children to be proud of their community instead of some team in a city where they never lived? And why wouldn’t I want to bond with my kids by having common interests such as both supporting the same team? It makes no sense to me - but that’s me. Other people feel different. Hell apparently nearly everyone feels different down here.

                        Last edited by Donnie D; 01-01-2021, 12:14 PM.
                        “Every man who has stepped foot on the moon launched from the Kennedy Space Center, in Florida. Yet, Florida has failed to figure out how to run an election properly — a task simpler than rocket science.”

                        Comment


                        • Starting in 2030, some other team will need a stadium and their owner will say, what about moving the team to Tampa Bay? You know that day is coming. When they do, they will see that the initial Rays ownership was shit. I couldn’t believe after getting the team, that no attempt was ever made to introduce fans to the players or the team. It was a cluster from day one. But they are also going to see that the Bucs and, to some extent, the Lightning, still survive on out of town fans.
                          “Every man who has stepped foot on the moon launched from the Kennedy Space Center, in Florida. Yet, Florida has failed to figure out how to run an election properly — a task simpler than rocket science.”

                          Comment


                          • Bolthed, other teams embrace their teams in far less time than 23 years. Cincinnati went from being a Browns town to a Bengals town overnight. Look at Vegas and the Knights. Nashville and their teams. Go to Cincinnati or Cleveland. You won't find people walking around wearing other team's hats and shirts. When I was in Cleveland, you spent Monday morning at work rehashing the Browns game from the day before. If you hadn't watched it, you weren't part of the conversation, even worst, you were considered just plain weird. You weren't one of them.

                            There just is no sense of community in Tampa, period. Not just the sports teams, everything. I've lived in Chicago, Cincinnati and Cleveland. People are proud of their community, If you ask them what they are proud of, they will go on for 30 minutes if you don't stop them. Even now, I could go on for hours about each of those 3 cities. Tampa? The weather. That's why people come here. If this town was up north, it would be Fargo.

                            This the only place where the teams are named for a place nobody lives. You wouldn't think of doing that anywhere else. Yes there is the St. Pete, Tampa split. But in Minnesota, they named it for the state. Tampa should have done the same thing if they weren't going to just name it "Tampa." In other towns TV and radio stations fight to see who can be more closely identified with the city. I'm not sure the local stations here ever cover their local government. It's generic car crashes and crime. If you broadcast a Tampa newscast in Omaha, the people watching couldn't tell you where the local newscast originated.

                            This is a a transplant town. But unlike other communities, there is no pressure to become local residents. Hell the traditional first question you ask someone when you meet then is "where are you from?"

                            It's a lot easier to build a following for a hockey team. The place only seats 19,000 and plays 41 times a year. And hockey has the most rabid fans out there. When I was growing up in Chicago, the joke was "why don't the Blackhawks get more coverage when they have sold out their games for 15 years." The answer, because the Blackhawks only have 20,000 fans. They just go to every game.

                            My point is that the Rays have had miserable ownership. The Bears, Bulls and White Sox have miserable ownership. The Reds had Marge Schott. The Browns had Art Modell. It didn't stop those communities from supporting their teams. Because in most towns a tidily winks team would be supported by the residents if they had the city's name on front.
                            Last edited by Donnie D; 01-01-2021, 12:20 PM.
                            “Every man who has stepped foot on the moon launched from the Kennedy Space Center, in Florida. Yet, Florida has failed to figure out how to run an election properly — a task simpler than rocket science.”

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Donnie D View Post

                              I’m not going to tell you what to do.

                              But I don’t get it. I grew up in Chicago, but I now live here. I want to be a part of the community where I live. That includes voting, volunteering and supporting local businesses and sports teams. Why would I still follow a team from a community that I chose to leave? Why wouldn’t I want my children to be proud of their community instead of some team in a city where they never lived? And why wouldn’t I want to bond with my kids by having common interests such as both supporting the same team? It makes no sense to me - but that’s me. Other people feel different. Hell apparently nearly everyone feels different down here.
                              I do support the local teams here. I wouldn’t say I’m a fan of any team except the Mavericks but I’m a well-wisher for the others. Even the Cowboys.

                              It’s only when they play a Tampa team that I flip sides. If the Stars had played any other team in the Cup final last year I would have wanted them to win. The Rangers beat the Rays in the playoffs both times they got to the World Series and I still wanted Texas to win after those series ended.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Donnie D View Post
                                Bolthed, other teams embrace their teams in far less time than 23 years. Cincinnati went from being a Browns town to a Bengals town overnight. Look at Vegas and the Knights. Nashville and their teams. Go to Cincinnati or Cleveland. You won't find people walking around wearing other team's hats and shirts. When I was in Cleveland, you spent Monday morning at work rehashing the Browns game from the day before. If you hadn't watched it, you weren't part of the conversation, even worst, you were considered just plain weird. You weren't one of them.

                                There just is no sense of community in Tampa, period. Not just the sports teams, everything. I've lived in Chicago, Cincinnati and Cleveland. People are proud of their community, If you ask them what they are proud of, they will go on for 30 minutes if you don't stop them. Even now, I could go on for hours about each of those 3 cities. Tampa? The weather. That's why people come here. If this town was up north, it would be Fargo.

                                This the only place where the teams are named for a place nobody lives. You wouldn't think of doing that anywhere else. Yes there is the St. Pete, Tampa split. But in Minnesota, they named it for the state. Tampa should have done the same thing if they weren't going to just name it "Tampa." In other towns TV and radio stations fight to see who can be more closely identified with the city. I'm not sure the local stations here ever cover their local government. It's generic car crashes and crime. If you broadcast a Tampa newscast in Omaha, the people watching couldn't tell you where the local newscast originated.

                                This is a a transplant town. But unlike other communities, there is no pressure to become local residents. Hell the traditional first question you ask someone when you meet then is "where are you from?"

                                It's a lot easier to build a following for a hockey team. The place only seats 19,000 and plays 41 times a year. And hockey has the most rabid fans out there. When I was growing up in Chicago, the joke was "why don't the Blackhawks get more coverage when they have sold out their games for 15 years." The answer, because the Blackhawks only have 20,000 fans. They just go to every game.

                                My point is that the Rays have had miserable ownership. The Bears, Bulls and White Sox have miserable ownership. The Reds had Marge Schott. The Browns had Art Modell. It didn't stop those communities from supporting their teams. Because in most towns a tidily winks team would be supported by the residents if they had the city's name on front.
                                You’re twisting into a pretzel to concoct a narrative (although we agree on some points). None of the teams you mentioned at the beginning of your post play baseball — a sport far FAR more based on the past and on generations of fans.

                                Then at the end, you did it again, sort of. The Bears, Bulls, White Sox and Reds have never been so stingy and anti-fan for as long as the Rays. All of those teams have built winners at several points in their histories and had very high payrolls.

                                Again, Stu Sternberg has been a smarmy, cheap-ass, whiny bitch from the day he bought the Rays. He doesn’t deserve you or anyone defending him. That’s my point. That’s it. He sucks as an owner, and his front office’s approach sucks for fans no matter how much they win.

                                You’re not a Rays fan (which might explain this tiresome back n forth), but imagine the Lightning winning the Cup on a low budget and then trading Kucherov or Point for prospects ... not a single fucking starting player ... all because of money and always looking to keep payroll low in the present and future. Really think about that scenario. Let it sink in.

                                Ive been a fan of every hometown team since it was born, and I’ve never seen this shit. I’ve never felt so disregarded by an owner ... and I lived through Hugh Culverhouse and Kokusai Green (which wasn’t even a person on this continent for cripes sake)!!!
                                “Could I had posted cite a site?” — WWW dot Trump makes you dumb dot RU

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